Sporting Dogs and Retriever Training, the Wild Rose Way


http://www.ducksunlimited.org/news-media/messageboards/Topic769013.aspx
Print Topic | Close Window

By blizzardhunter - 7/19/2012 10:18:38 PM
This book came out today.  Its supposed to be a guide to training a "Gentlemans" gun dog without force fetch or E collars.  I very low pressure approach.  Just wondering what everyone thought of this or if anyone was planning on getting the book.  Would be interested to hear some opinions on it.
By Tim Price - 7/20/2012 1:59:04 PM
I'll stick with Lardy's stuff.  You end up with a much more advanced trained retriever IMO.
By Pit Boss - 7/22/2012 8:52:53 PM
So if I write a book about training a retriever using force fetch and/or e-collars would the title have to be "Training A Gun Dog For Scoundrels"? I eschew his BS. 
By talley2191 - 7/26/2012 3:39:15 PM
I don't think it's anything you haven't heard before. Probably the same as the video that has been out for some time. Just a different way of training. I believe the "Gentleman" monicker is a play on the english angle and the perceived manner they train/hunt their dogs. More of a slogan than anything else. 
By scofo35 - 8/25/2012 9:32:06 PM
I run an American Lab and will continue to train him the American way, hard. My uncle has an English lab, won't use the ecollar, and just won't be hard on the dog when needed. Needless to say I have a rock solid duck and Pheasant dog with a Senior title and he just yells at his dog as it does whatever it wants. 

I say go "American" in labs and training technique.
By talley2191 - 8/27/2012 7:09:26 AM
I have an english lab that is the opposite of the one your uncle has. Never used an ecollar (used one on my other dogs), and he is solid. I'm an outfitter hunting the eastern shore of Maryland so maybe the high number of retrieves shaped him. I do believe there is a lot to selective breeding (perhaps not as easy as just saying american vs english is the only thing important) but I also think you're always prone to getting a knucklehead dog from any stock. I'm just glad how hard he works and don't think much about the american vs english angle. I'm glad I didn't screw him up :D Hope your uncle gets his dog straight.  
By SkYE BUSTERS - 9/3/2012 5:03:57 PM
I have an American Black lab he is 9 months today never had a collar and always willing to be worked hard since he was 6 weeks and I have a video of him retriving buffle heads to hand. I have never had to force anything upon him. I believe in working a dog hard however I dont believe that the dog should be scared to make a mistake meaning I dont believe in the collars. I know if had to where one as a kid I wouldnt have made it to 19 cause my dad wouldve fried me instead he just smaked his hand firmly very firmly on my rear. There has been plenty of times where he has mad a mistake and when I yell at him he knows he did wrong and wants to make it right. If I give him the same situation he messed up on the first time the second it is perfect. Today was his first hunt that we didnt get skunked he retrived his dove and has been begging me to get back out since then. Everyone has their dog of their lifetime and I have mine now.
By Mallard Mugger - 9/3/2012 10:17:26 PM
SkYE BUSTERS (9/3/2012)
I have an American Black lab he is 9 months today never had a collar and always willing to be worked hard since he was 6 weeks and I have a video of him retriving buffle heads to hand. I have never had to force anything upon him. I believe in working a dog hard however I dont believe that the dog should be scared to make a mistake meaning I dont believe in the collars. I know if had to where one as a kid I wouldnt have made it to 19 cause my dad wouldve fried me instead he just smaked his hand firmly very firmly on my rear. There has been plenty of times where he has mad a mistake and when I yell at him he knows he did wrong and wants to make it right. If I give him the same situation he messed up on the first time the second it is perfect. Today was his first hunt that we didnt get skunked he retrived his dove and has been begging me to get back out since then. Everyone has their dog of their lifetime and I have mine now.
It's awesome when you have your dog of a lifetime.  Enjoy him because the time goes fast.

Are you following the Wildrose Way of training then?  Please do a search about the meaning of Force Fetch, no it will not be in Wildrose.  It has very little to do with force.  BTW, your dads hand was "force", you're yelling at the dog is "force".  The two are only different in application principle.  The E Collar would not be a wise investment in your hands at this point in time.  From what you have posted, you don't understand the use of it.  There is more to the collar as there is with FF as well.  I'm not starting an argument, just pointing out to all who might read your post that there is more to it.

Enjoy your pup and his first hunting season, it goes by fast.  Happy Hunting!
By Pit Boss - 9/4/2012 4:17:05 PM
SkYE BUSTERS (9/3/2012)
I have an American Black lab he is 9 months today never had a collar and always willing to be worked hard since he was 6 weeks and I have a video of him retriving buffle heads to hand. I have never had to force anything upon him. I believe in working a dog hard however I dont believe that the dog should be scared to make a mistake meaning I dont believe in the collars. I know if had to where one as a kid I wouldnt have made it to 19 cause my dad wouldve fried me instead he just smaked his hand firmly very firmly on my rear. There has been plenty of times where he has mad a mistake and when I yell at him he knows he did wrong and wants to make it right. If I give him the same situation he messed up on the first time the second it is perfect. Today was his first hunt that we didnt get skunked he retrived his dove and has been begging me to get back out since then. Everyone has their dog of their lifetime and I have mine now.
It's  posts like this that give the impression that the use of e-collars are in-humane when it is the exact opposite that is true. I would be willing to bet that you have never spent time with a successful dog trainer? I am pretty sure I speak for most e-collar trainers when I say I resent that you accuse e-collar trainers of frying their dogs. Spend some time with a local retriever club and open your eyes. Watch these dogs with tons of drive and ask yourself, why did these successful people waste the time to force train their dogs? 
By Tim Price - 9/4/2012 5:03:34 PM
SkYE BUSTERS (9/3/2012)
I have an American Black lab he is 9 months today never had a collar and always willing to be worked hard since he was 6 weeks and I have a video of him retriving buffle heads to hand. I have never had to force anything upon him. I believe in working a dog hard however I dont believe that the dog should be scared to make a mistake meaning I dont believe in the collars. I know if had to where one as a kid I wouldnt have made it to 19 cause my dad wouldve fried me instead he just smaked his hand firmly very firmly on my rear. There has been plenty of times where he has mad a mistake and when I yell at him he knows he did wrong and wants to make it right. If I give him the same situation he messed up on the first time the second it is perfect. Today was his first hunt that we didnt get skunked he retrived his dove and has been begging me to get back out since then. Everyone has their dog of their lifetime and I have mine now.


 I agree with the last 2 posters. You're young and are making statements about a level and style of training you simply don't understand. It's funny you mention your dad and the use of a collar. If he had a temper, you are exactly right that he shouldn't have a collar and the same idea goes with a guy training a dog. Temper and e-collars are a bad combo. And based on your use of the word "fried" I'm guessing either he has a temper or you have seen guys with dogs who didn't know how to use a collar.

Today's collars are much better than those found 20-30 yrs ago as are the training programs. If done right, there is no "frying" going on. In fact, I have corrected my dog in obedience settings with people around and they didn't even know I did anything. If set correctly, I could nick my dog with her standing right next to you and you wouldn't even know it. When I first got into dogs, I saw guys hold down the button and watch their dogs spin in circles. Most of those guys either changed their ways or quit the game as the guys who went with modern training methods were beating them at trials every weekend.  
By Pit Boss - 9/4/2012 6:43:55 PM
Tim is exactly right. I spend much of my time doing drills in a field by my home. On one side is a medical clinic and on the other side is a retirement home. Do you know how many times I have had a negative comment about my training? Never. Like Tim mentioned, this isn't 20-30 years ago. Today everyone has a camera on their phone and if you train in an in-humane way you will probably end up on the news with your dog being taken away. Wow, come to think of it, the same thing would happen today to the father who smacks his son on the rear. Perhaps I will write a parenting book and I will call it "A Gentleman's Guide To Parenting".
By blizzardhunter - 9/4/2012 8:48:07 PM
This year I have been training my first dog ever.  He is my buddy and goes with me anywhere and anytime he can.  He is great on obedience and always has been.  We did FF and just finished up collar conditioning.  Next week we will be starting collar fetch.  I will say this, if you think you have a solid obidient dog, collar condition him.  It will be quick and easy if he has been trained well and listens well.  But when you get done you will have a dog that will amaze you and most people.   Just my experience but my pup has just achieved a whole new level in my eyes.
By SkYE BUSTERS - 9/4/2012 10:14:09 PM
Guys  I have spent time with wonderful dog trainers from all over my uncle is a trainer for the state police and he breeds and trains labs as well. I have a 7 year old yellow as well who was put on the e collar by some of the best dog trainers around and he had the hunt taken out of him it was a combination of both dog and trainer. He is terrified of a remote of any kind. I'm not saying anything about the collars being inhumane at all because if that works for you then go with it. I myself believe that if you work with the dog as much as you can day and night you will have a bond that is inseparable and the dog will have the respect that you need to be successful. Another trainer of very successful dogs approached me while at work and agrees with how I have done things with him and its the same methods he uses. I understand the concept of force fetch and the dog bringing it to your hand as well. I did not have to do any of this with gunner he did it himself without instruction it came natural to him. Theses are all things that I have experienced and learned from some of the best. Everyone has their own methods that are proven to work otherwise there would only be a handful of retrievers with titles out there.
By Tim Price - 9/5/2012 10:20:28 AM
SkYE BUSTERS (9/4/2012)
I have a 7 year old yellow as well who was put on the e collar by some of the best dog trainers around and he had the hunt taken out of him it was a combination of both dog and trainer. He is terrified of a remote of any kind.


IMO the dog wasn't with a good trainer as a dog trained properly with an e-collar actually gets excited at the sight of the collar and remote. Just this morning I grabbed my collar and my dog went nuts. It was cool enough out so we were  going to run some blinds. She saw the collar and knew it was go time. With today's collars sensitive dogs that couldn't make it years ago are succeeding because the training methods allow them to succeed. So a sensitive dog with a good trainer makes a well trained dog. A sensitive dog with a trainer who uses the e-collar incorrectly....pretty good chance at a dog that doesn't make it.   

SkYE BUSTERS (9/4/2012)
I understand the concept of force fetch and the dog bringing it to your hand as well. I did not have to do any of this with gunner he did it himself without instruction it came natural to him.
 

Actually you don't quite understand FF as bringing a bird to hand isn't why FF is done. We all pretty much had pups that bring bumpers and birds to hand early on but we still FF. FF teaches the dog how to turn off pressure which is the basic premise of the training program/philosophy taught by 90+ percent of the good trainers out there. Pressure comes in many forms like voice, heeling stick, e-collar, etc. The dog learns during FF that complying to a command turns off the pressure (ear pinch) and later in training the same compliance to a command turns off the collar. It's far too complex to explain here but it works and is much more than getting the dog to bring a duck to hand. 

SkYE BUSTERS (9/4/2012)
Everyone has their own methods that are proven to work otherwise there would only be a handful of retrievers with titles out there.


Actually as I stated above, almost every trainer I know, trained with, and compete with all train the same way. Sure there are little things they do a bit different. BUT the basic steps which are outlined on Lardy's flowchart are done by damn near every trainer out there. Rex Carr was a brilliant man and changed forever the way our dogs are trained.

As was stated earlier by someone, I also am concerned when threads on here may lead people to believe something negative about collars when the person may not really have the most experience giving a viewpoint. We've been succcessful here at seeing many guys take their first dog with no experience at all thru force fetch, collar conditioning, and on thru Lardy's program to where they are running long blinds. That's why I come on here.
By talley2191 - 9/12/2012 8:06:21 AM
I cannot understand why there is a debate on this issue. Why is it so difficult to comprehend that there are many ways to train. Never force fetched my english lab or used eCollar, and he is a stud. Maybe through breeding (yes Wildrose) or perhaps its from its from working the dog in my outfitter business on the eastern shore of Maryland and Canada. It probably has a lot to do with several hundred retrieves he has done each year. I can appreciate defending the use of the eCollar as any technique in the wrong hand could be detrimental to a dog's development. While eCollar was not needed in my case, I do see its merit in the right hands. I trust what Tim is saying, and would have to defer to him as I am not a dog trainer by any means. I'm a waterfowl hunting guide who has trained my own dogs. In my mind, that doesn't make me a dog trainer. I am just trying to perhaps set a tone for a little more understanding of different techniques.   

I recall my first experience at a hunt test. I was deeply in the minority of people who actually had a hunting dog. It was clear that many, many of these dogs were simply taught the test (that is based on conversations with the trialers, and not my interpretation, or observations), and were no more a hunting dog than I would be Spanish speaker if I simply read parts of a Spanish dictionary. 

I think it's a little closed minded to judge techniques as either all good or all bad just as it would be closed minded of me to believe that hunt test trainers know nothing about training a working dog that must work outside the confines of hunt trial. While that has been my experience with a fair share of titled dogs my clients sometimes bring out in the field on my guided hunts, it would be ignorant to offer that as a blanket statement. 

I just can't believe that it has to be either eCollar, or non eCollar training for every dog. In my naive way of thinking, I expect a good trainer to understand which works best and stop thinking you're going to "build" every dog with the same cookie cutter technique. 
By Pit Boss - 9/12/2012 3:59:12 PM
talley2191 (9/12/2012)
I cannot understand why there is a debate on this issue. Why is it so difficult to comprehend that there are many ways to train. Never force fetched my english lab or used eCollar, and he is a stud. Maybe through breeding (yes Wildrose) or perhaps its from its from working the dog in my outfitter business on the eastern shore of Maryland and Canada. It probably has a lot to do with several hundred retrieves he has done each year. I can appreciate defending the use of the eCollar as any technique in the wrong hand could be detrimental to a dog's development. While eCollar was not needed in my case, I do see its merit in the right hands. I trust what Tim is saying, and would have to defer to him as I am not a dog trainer by any means. I'm a waterfowl hunting guide who has trained my own dogs. In my mind, that doesn't make me a dog trainer. I am just trying to perhaps set a tone for a little more understanding of different techniques.   

I recall my first experience at a hunt test. I was deeply in the minority of people who actually had a hunting dog. It was clear that many, many of these dogs were simply taught the test (that is based on conversations with the trialers, and not my interpretation, or observations), and were no more a hunting dog than I would be Spanish speaker if I simply read parts of a Spanish dictionary. 

I think it's a little closed minded to judge techniques as either all good or all bad just as it would be closed minded of me to believe that hunt test trainers know nothing about training a working dog that must work outside the confines of hunt trial. While that has been my experience with a fair share of titled dogs my clients sometimes bring out in the field on my guided hunts, it would be ignorant to offer that as a blanket statement. 

I just can't believe that it has to be either eCollar, or non eCollar training for every dog. In my naive way of thinking, I expect a good trainer to understand which works best and stop thinking you're going to "build" every dog with the same cookie cutter technique. 


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Once again this site has combined your quote with my response. It must be difficult to fix.:blink: My response is below.


You do not understand why there's a debate on the issue? Did you read this article (the link is below)? Read the second Fricking paragraph and tell me why do you think those that use the collar are sick of having to defend the use of it. All he does is bad mouth the collar so he can promote his product. Which IMO is inferior to the American Lab, but I am sure you will disagree since you already bought into his BS. If he is going to bad mouth American labs than I have a right to bad mouth his dogs. BTW, why is it that people that buy a Wildrose dog feel the need to always post it is a Wildrose dog? I have two labs and I have never posted the breeders names of those dogs and for that matter I do not recall any post where someone with an American Lab posted who the breeder is but I can recall hundreds of posts where people need to brag about their Wildrose dog. You can say that he has great dogs, but titles will prove it. Just like you saying yours is a stud and you ran trials with it. Now you have proof that your dog is a stud (not sure exactly what qualifies a dog as a stud?). What title did you get with your English Lab? What does your dog do that makes him a stud? BTW, I am not sure what kind of hunt test you were running but I find it hard to believe that most of the people were not hunters. 
Anyway, you wanted to know why there is a debate on this issue?The short answer is I am sick of reading his marketing BS and I am really sick of reading it in DU magazines.